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    Richard E

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    Clear red mosaic

    Post  Richard E on Sat Oct 22 2011, 16:49

    As many of you will be buying up your stock in the coming weeks I thought I would post some pictures showing red mosaic cocks and hens. I am trying to show what type of hens that I believe are needed to breed good exibition cks , while these hens would never meet the standard for exibition as they carry too much colour around the face . PhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucket





    The following pictures show hens with a mask to breed cocks like abovePhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobuckethref="http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif" target="_blank">PhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucket


    Last edited by Richard E on Sat Oct 22 2011, 20:03; edited 1 time in total
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    canarymatt

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  canarymatt on Sat Oct 22 2011, 17:57

    Good post Richard and very helpfull thanks,a picture paints a thousand words
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    Red devil
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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Red devil on Sat Oct 22 2011, 19:24

    OK Richard I agree that your hens have to much red on their heads but their breasts are clear and would of thought you should one or two show standard hens, very nice mate.
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    BlueCobalt
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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  BlueCobalt on Sat Oct 22 2011, 19:40

    Like the masks on some of those cocks! Hope we see a lot of them at the ACS!
    Nice rich very nice. I take my hat off to mosaic clear breeders so hard to reach utopia, your strain is looking good year on year mate. Very Happy
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    Robby Mitchell

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Robby Mitchell on Sat Oct 22 2011, 19:44

    Nice pictures and lovely birds Richard


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    Richard E

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Richard E on Sat Oct 22 2011, 19:54

    Cliff if you look closly you can see colour on the brests of the hens , if it is too obvious it makes the cks have too much on there chests , pairing of mosaics all seems to be about balance , bred 30 hens this year and not one is any where near show standard for a hen , like I have said before keep the two types seperate .
    When I had some a small stud to breed exibition hens the cks only had a band of red across the forhead plus the usual colour points .
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    Richard E

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Richard E on Sat Oct 22 2011, 20:01

    Simon. Got to try hard if I want to have a hope of beating Santi and his conveyer Laughing
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    john,h

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  john,h on Sat Oct 22 2011, 21:14

    Hi Richard,your birds look nice and so clean,persil clean lol
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    RayC

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  RayC on Sat Oct 22 2011, 21:41

    great pics Richard, best of luck with them in the shows
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    BlueCobalt
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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  BlueCobalt on Sat Oct 22 2011, 22:20

    Just an observation after closer examination, " colour points now moved mammoth since the mid 80s, where and when will it stop?"
    This is purely my thought process on this? I would be interested to see how many mosaic breeders feel about this??? Will the mask grow more? Will triangulation on the chest expand further?
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    Richard E

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Richard E on Sat Oct 22 2011, 22:40

    Only been keeping them since 2000 whats the main difference between then and now , I have seen pictures of birds from yesteryear and the colour and definition seems to be better on modern birds .
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    BlueCobalt
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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  BlueCobalt on Sat Oct 22 2011, 23:05

    Will see if I can scan the early pictures I have on here! Would agree colour better now and for me they have much more type!

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Guest on Sun Oct 23 2011, 10:33

    I read the "Standard" this morning, pending some update on description for the 'cock' as per the CCBA Booklet.

    Ho hum silent

    I know the Continental Fanciers like to 'amend' the Standards as they - in their view breed up to & "past" them, especially in the 'Southern' nations. The 'best' Mosaics there....if they are the 'best' seem to have colour points which substantially surpass the Standard of the CCBA ?

    So should they be bred 'to' it ? or 'past' it & then change it ? Ged has some pictures of Goldfinches on another current 'thread' so we can all see the size of a Goldfinch 'mask' in case we need memories jogging Wink

    Reading it, it did seem to "fit" the best current Uk 'hens' far more so than what are perceived as the best cocks ( as Cliff alluded to )
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    John_Graydon
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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  John_Graydon on Sun Oct 23 2011, 12:46

    Richard E wrote:Cliff if you look closly you can see colour on the brests of the hens , if it is too obvious it makes the cks have too much on there chests , pairing of mosaics all seems to be about balance , bred 30 hens this year and not one is any where near show standard for a hen , like I have said before keep the two types seperate .
    When I had some a small stud to breed exibition hens the cks only had a band of red across the forhead plus the usual colour points .
    Its very hard to imagine the colour on the breast as over here I havent see anything that comes even close to having a faint triangle of colour on the breast. Most of them have a heavy area of frosting in that part of the body. Will have to get a closer look at the hens at the top shows and see what is required. As a picture in the flesh stays in my mind and would try and replicate it in the breeding room. I get what your saying about seperate stud, but many of us would not have the room for the amount of birds that are required in a mixed stud. I can see the Blaze on the Cocks becoming bigger & bigger over the next decade. Fantastic idea Richard of putting up the photos for us to see. Hope you do well with them, as your bird always look fantastic.


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    Richard E

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Richard E on Sun Oct 23 2011, 16:12

    Good ck goldfinches masks go just past the eye , the standard calls for the top of the mask to finnish at the middle of the eye , I believe that Geds bird was a hen and as such should finish at the eye , also there is a wide variation in goldfinches masks depending on what subspecies you have . So it leaves a lot of room for interpretation .
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    Richard E

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Richard E on Mon Oct 24 2011, 21:06

    A few pics of goldfinches showing the size of masks and the difference between ck s and hens masks , I think that assumite was implying that the masks are too large but as can be seen goldfinch masks can be large to PhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucketbottem picture showing ck and hen .










    As can be seen modern mosaic masks are not to dissimilar from goldfinches which is required ,the main difference is the trail off behind the eye on a mosaic which is meant to go past /behind the by 5 mm this is then incorporated into the mask .


    Last edited by Richard E on Mon Oct 24 2011, 21:16; edited 1 time in total
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    norwich
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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  norwich on Mon Oct 24 2011, 21:13

    Thanks for putting the pictures of the mosaics on richard . they answered a lot of questions i was going to ask . Ps , if they are your goldfinches in the above pictures , you are a very lucky man . they are stunning birds.


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    canarymatt

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  canarymatt on Mon Oct 24 2011, 21:27

    This cock bird,one of the birds I posted earlier scored 94 points at the Spanish national which as I understand it is the maximum point that can be awarded so that suggests it has the perfect mask along with everything else !!
    It looks to big to me but who am I to say.



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    Richard E

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Richard E on Mon Oct 24 2011, 21:41

    Nice birds Matt , one thing I noticed is that the trail off behind the eye goes back a long way , some judges in this country make a big deal about having colour behind the eye , are uk and continental standards the same ?
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    Red devil
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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Red devil on Mon Oct 24 2011, 21:44

    canarymatt wrote:This cock bird,one of the birds I posted earlier scored 94 points at the Spanish national which as I understand it is the maximum point that can be awarded so that suggests it has the perfect mask along with everything else !!
    It looks to big to me but who am I to say.




    Can't see the bird that clearly but what I can see the I would agree with you.

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Guest on Mon Oct 24 2011, 21:47

    Richard - I wasn't implying anything......I wouldn't know a good ( or a bad ) Mosaic if it bit me in the 'small disinct rump' Razz . I was simply working from the Standard as worded in the CCBA 'Standards' Booklet, for cocks, pending Cliff, or whoever posting up the definition. It just struck me it didn't tie in with the birds being put up as good ones ( can't find any mention of 5mm ? for example) in that they are much more colourful.

    But I have not got any....& it will be a while before I do so I have plenty of time to get my head around it......& all I have is the CCBA Booklet...but it is the up to date one.



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    canarymatt

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  canarymatt on Mon Oct 24 2011, 21:56

    Sorry Richard I dont have a clue about the standards,my Spanish is not that good and have never senn a set of standard but I guess they must be different or the judge would have marked it down.
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    Richard E

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Richard E on Mon Oct 24 2011, 22:13

    This is a very good pictorial representation showing the standards also has referance of the 5mm behind the eye , the mask needs to go past the eye for the eye to be positioned within the area of colouration .


    http://colourcanary.forumotion.net/t534-mosaic-pattern

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    Red devil
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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Red devil on Mon Oct 24 2011, 22:14

    canarymatt wrote:Sorry Richard I dont have a clue about the standards,my Spanish is not that good and have never senn a set of standard but I guess they must be different or the judge would have marked it down.

    How did they compare with the other exhibits Question Question Question Question Question

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    Re: Clear red mosaic

    Post  Guest on Mon Oct 24 2011, 23:04

    Richard E wrote: This is a very good pictorial representation showing the standards also has referance of the 5mm behind the eye , the mask needs to go past the eye for the eye to be positioned within the area of colouration .
    http://colourcanary.forumotion.net/t534-mosaic-pattern

    Hmm..... as a 're-join' to the C.C.B.A. I received a Show Standards - 2nd Revision April 2011......which I presume is the current edition & it in no way approximates that description (or level of description) & has no 'image'.

    That looks like a translated 'foreign' standard to me, from the spelling ? I can see Blue Cobalt suggests it 'was' the CCBA standard, but it certainly isn't in it's finer detail - according to my book - the current one Neutral





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