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    Phaeo Inheritance

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    mickelmus

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    Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  mickelmus on Wed Aug 28 2013, 16:30

    Hi all
    Can anyone tell me how the inheritance works with Phaeo. Is it dominant, recessive or what.
    I was given a white Phaeo cock late in the season, and paired it to a self Harlequin hen and they have produced 4 young.  Two are self fawn looking birds (Brown) one is self fawn looking with Phaeo looking wings like the cock.  The other is a dark bird with a grey-ish underbelly like a white ground with no yellow, just black and brown feathers.  Is Phaeo sex linked and will these young be carriers of Phaeo.
    Having never kept Phaeo before, I'm curious as to how it's transferred.

    Regards    Mick
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    zipdogso
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    Re: Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  zipdogso on Wed Aug 28 2013, 19:11

    As far as I understand it Pheao is homozygous recessive And requires both parents to be at least carriers to be visual in the young. In the case of your youngsters (assuming the harlequin hen isn't a carrier.) they are all carriers.
    The danger with homozygous recessives is that even pairing a carrier to a non-carrier produces a percentage of carriers and the mutation can remain hidden for a number of generations before surfacing. It will serve you well to keep accurate records of your pairings and the outcomes to allow you to track possible spread of the mutation but accurate results will only be obtained with a good knowledge of the method of inheritance for the mutation and many test pairings.

    You will do better to try and keep homozygous recessive pairings to those where both parents are visual.

    Normal indicates a bird that is neither visual or carrier to the mutation.
    All pairings below can be transposed i.e. in line 2) the phaeo parent can be either the cock or the hen.

    1) Pheao x Pheao produces all pheao
    2) Pheao x Normal produces all Normal young carrying Pheao
    3) Normal carrying Pheao x Pheao produces 50% Pheao and 50% Normal carrying Pheao
    4) Normal carrying Pheao x Normal carrying Pheao produces 25% Normal, 50% Normal carrying Pheao and 25% Pheao.
    5) Normal carrying Pheao x Normal produces all normal young 50% of which will carry Pheao.

    Percentages are theoretical expectations not actual amounts produced.
    one should try and avoid pairings 4) and 5) as much as possible due to producing unknown carriers.
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    GeoffW

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    Re: Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  GeoffW on Thu Aug 29 2013, 07:15

    In addition to what Simon has told you Mick, other factors need to be taken into consideration.
    The Phaeo is a mutation that can be added to the 4 classic colours ( black, brown, agate and isabel). It normally appears as a brown and it seems probable this is what you have.
    So the 3 fawn looking birds you have ( called browns) will be hens. Unless other unknown factors are also present the bird with the different coloured wings is just mis coloured. The other bird is a black and will be a cock and will be a carrier of brown.Brown is a sex linked mutation.
    You then have the dominant white mutation of the lipochrome, which as the name suggests is a dominant mutation. Theoretically you will breed 50% whites and 50% coloured birds from your pairing. You would seem to have bred all whites.
    All of your chicks will be carriers of phaeo.
    Your pairing is also effectively a crossing of red and yellow lipochrome, which is not recommended because of the time it will take to breed either pure red or yellow birds.
    I would suggest that should you wish to concentrate on phaeos you sell all the chicks you have bred and buy a yellow brown carrier of phaeo to pair to the cock.
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    canarymatt

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    Re: Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  canarymatt on Thu Aug 29 2013, 18:04

    Have you looked at this section of the forum

    http://colourcanary.forumotion.net/t4106-ino-cobalt-expectations
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    zipdogso
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    Re: Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  zipdogso on Thu Aug 29 2013, 19:11

    yes I suppose he may not realize that pheao is the new term for ino but there is nothing there that is not in my post above.....
    in fact if you add the points raised by Geoff the 2 posts in answer to this query were more relevant and more informative to mickelmus than the link.
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    canarymatt

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    Re: Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  canarymatt on Fri Aug 30 2013, 09:10

    Well I'm sorry I posted it now,I was just trying to help
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    BlueCobalt
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    Re: Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  BlueCobalt on Fri Aug 30 2013, 10:59

    Matt don't worry about Mr Angry from Purley! It's just the way he writes! He wasn't intentionally trying to put you down.


    Last edited by BlueCobalt on Fri Aug 30 2013, 11:00; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Damn predictive text!)
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    mickelmus

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    Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  mickelmus on Sat Aug 31 2013, 22:57

    Thanks everyone for the well informed replies. I've found them very intriguing.
    I shall definitely look for a yellow brown carrier of phaeo for next season.
    I've read those replies over and over, and I think I shall have to copy the inheritance chart to make sure I don't forget.  Just as a point of interest. do Phaeo birds need any colour feeding as I think they look OK as they are.

    Regards   Mick
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    GeoffW

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    Re: Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  GeoffW on Sun Sep 01 2013, 07:27

    Phaeos can appear in all ground colours. As with all other mutations if they are red or red ivory they need to be colour fed. Your bird being white will not need colour feeding neither will any of the young should you pair it to a yellow brown.
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    mickelmus

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    Re: Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  mickelmus on Sun Sep 01 2013, 10:28

    GeoffW wrote:Phaeos can appear in all ground colours. As with all other mutations if they are red or red ivory they need to be colour fed. Your bird being white will not need colour feeding neither will any of the young should you pair it to a yellow brown.
    Thanks Geoff.    I think they look good just the way they are.  The darkest one has a ginger look about him in the sunlight and the other two are a shade lighter.  Nice looking birds, I'm quite pleased with them.

    Thanks again  

    Mick

    raymond73

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    Re: Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  raymond73 on Wed Jul 09 2014, 15:49

    zipdogso wrote:As far as I understand it Pheao is homozygous recessive And requires both parents to be at least carriers to be visual in the young. In the case of your youngsters (assuming the harlequin hen isn't a carrier.) they are all carriers.
    The danger with homozygous recessives is that even pairing a carrier to a non-carrier produces a percentage of carriers and the mutation can remain hidden for a number of generations before surfacing. It will serve you well to keep accurate records of your pairings and the outcomes to allow you to track possible spread of the mutation but accurate results will only be obtained with a good knowledge of the method of inheritance for the mutation and many test pairings.

    You will do better to try and keep homozygous recessive pairings to those where both parents are visual.

    Normal indicates a bird that is neither visual or carrier to the mutation.
    All pairings below can be transposed i.e. in line 2) the phaeo parent can be either the cock or the hen.

    1) Pheao x Pheao produces all pheao
    2) Pheao x Normal produces all Normal young carrying Pheao
    3) Normal carrying Pheao x Pheao produces 50% Pheao and 50% Normal carrying Pheao
    4) Normal carrying Pheao x Normal carrying Pheao produces 25% Normal, 50% Normal carrying Pheao and 25% Pheao.
    5) Normal carrying Pheao x Normal produces all normal young 50% of which will carry Pheao.

    Percentages are theoretical expectations not actual amounts produced.
    one should try and avoid pairings 4) and 5) as much as possible due to producing unknown carriers.



    Very interesting post. Just on the pairings above, when you say normal would this be most other canaries once its not a phaeo. So if you pair a phaeo cock to say a diamorphic hen and all the young where brown this would meen there hens. Another question.If you breed a visual yellow phaeo cock to a visual white phaeo hen and you get a visual yellow phaeo cock, would he be able to produce white phaeos if paired back to his mother or paired to a white ground phaeo carrier.
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    johnboy

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    Re: Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  johnboy on Wed Jul 09 2014, 15:58

    if the cock was bred from a recessive white hen then he could well breed whites,,,so the short answer would be yes,,,but having bred a recessive white this year and only getting one white outta eight chicks shows you cant allways get what you want,,,as zip says there theoretical exspectations,,,normal= any non phaeo bird,,,hope this helps,,,johnboy.... study 

    raymond73

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    Re: Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  raymond73 on Wed Jul 09 2014, 16:51

    johnboy wrote:if the cock was bred from a recessive white hen then he could well breed whites,,,so the short answer would be yes,,,but having bred a recessive white this year and only getting one white outta eight chicks shows you cant allways get what you want,,,as zip says there theoretical exspectations,,,normal= any non phaeo bird,,,hope this helps,,,johnboy.... study 
    Yeah thats grand, thanks for your reply. ATB Ray

    Pink

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    Re: Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  Pink on Sun Jul 03 2016, 17:21

    Geoff is there a possibility of breeding pure white recessive whites if the phaeos are recessive?
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    GeoffW

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    Re: Phaeo Inheritance

    Post  GeoffW on Sun Jul 03 2016, 17:38

    I am not totally sure what you mean Pink.
    Recessive White is a mutation that effects the ground or background colour. Phaeo is a mutation that affects the melanin pigment. If you mean producing clear white birds with a white underflu then phaeo is not for you. It is quite possible to produce recessive white phaeos.
    If I have not amswered your question then please post again with more detail of what you want to know.

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