hi people need some help please

hi all . I am new to this forum and canary breeding but have always fancied breeding some canaries. as a kid I grew up in holland where I visited may shows . but never got a chance to try breeding a pair of birds. well last year I finished building my outside aviary and just a couple weeks ago, I picked up a breeding pair or red cobalt intensive canaries. (from belgium apparently)  . I am based in Leicester and hope one day to have some nice birds to show off .

Apart from introducing myself I wanted to ask your help on an issue that I am facing with my breeding pair.
My apologies for perhaps placing this question in the wrong forum section and to explain the below in so much detail   

when I purchased my breeding pair, before placing them in the aviary I checked the male and female and both seems ready. both vents bigger and ready. the breeder I bought them from told me that they are ready and would lay eggs soon. low and behold a couple days later they started picking up straws and looking for a breeding place.

I wondered wether I should put them in breeding cages inside my shed that has a timer light and is warmer then the leicester UK outside weather.
I left them in the aviary and I decided to put up a breeding nest and my breeding pair (copper and rosie as the children like to call them) started building their nest. I noticed that copper (male ) and Rosie(female) have been feeding each other ( copper feeding rosie) and I have spotted the occasional mating going on.after a couple days in the outside aviary ( that does have a inside sheltered area, where the birds sleep mostly) the weather became colder. I decided to put them in the breeding cages in the shed to allow them to breed like I have always seen before.

I took the half unfinished nest and placed that in the breeding cage. a couple hours later both birds looked really unhappy and were fluffed up and closing their eyes.
I took them out again and placed them back in the aviary and they were really happy again. I place the nest back where it was initially ( in the outside bit of the aviary) and watched them for a couple hours to make sure all was fine. they continued building the nest . so I left them outside.  a couple days past and the nest looks like its ready. I even spotted Rosie this morning 5 am sitting on the nest for a while.

I came back from work today and my son mentioned that he noticed white liquid  coming from Rosie's vent . being little, he and his mum decided that Rosie's water had broken   .
I reassured that this would not happen and that I would keep an eye on her. well later just before copper and Rosie's bedtime I checked on them and I noticed Rosie dropping from her  vent a  clear white liquid  ??? I have never seen this before ..

whats going on . I have heard of egg bound problems, but she is not sitting on the floor or looks ill at all . she has being flying around the aviary all day long.
I am now worried that maybe by moving her or not providing good living conditions ( breeding cages) that I have caused her problems   

I am really tempted to bring her inside, in my warm lighted shed . but don't want to disturb her and cause any problems.

I would be very grateful if anyone could help me with some advice here. is this normal? or do I need to worry and if so what you good people suggest I do. I am so scared that my first attempt of breeding this lovely pair might cost me lovely bird   

please forum members give this wannabe canary breeder some advice

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Welcome to the forum Rash, I cannot help you with the white liquid?? must leave that to one of the experts on here but that aside just leave the birds alone and hopefully they will go on to lay, I dont know how much you know about breeding canaries so i will assume (from what you have posted) you are completely in the dark, so as i have said leave them alone to get on with breeding, what we normally do with canaries is as they lay we take out the fresh egg and replace with a fake one until the day of the fourth egg when we take out the fakes and replace them with the real eggs, fake eggs can be bought at your local pet shop for a few pence, If you dont feel safe removing the eggs then leave them alone no harm will come to them, breeders only do that to make sure all eggs hatch on the same day. That is all you need bother with at the moment, the correct feeding etc etc can be explained when needed. So for now just relax, breeding canaries is supposed to be a way to unwind after a hard day at work. What I should have said if you remove the eggs is,
to store them safely in a box until they are replaced they dont need turning or messing with at all.

Mal

Pete thank you for your kind words , yes you are right I am probably watching them to much and worrying to much. The problem is that the information that we have available nowadays is so worrying . I searched on the symptoms I mentioned on the net and there are all kinds scary stuff out there. but I agree with you if there is something wrong then hopefully I can find the reason.

Mal thank you for your response as well. yeah thats what I thought to just leave them alone , I checked on her again this morning and she is flying around even sitting on the nest a couple times eating seeds etc . she doesn't look ill to me. I will just leave her for a couple days and see what happens.
I saw her doing a normal dropping today although her vent seems very swollen.

thank your for your advice on the eggs . I have purchased some fake eggs last week from ebay as I was intending to put my pair in the breeding boxes . however now they are breeding in the aviary, I don't want to disrupt the nest . its not easily removable , I screwed the nest into a high place in the aviary. don't want to come near them with a screwdriver . so I guess I will just leave them as is.

in terms of food , they are quality canary seeds and twice a week some greens/fruits and then once a week half a boiled egg with the crushed eggs shells next to it . I leave the boiled egg for max 4 hours and then remove it. is there anything else you advise I should provide for them?

I called up the breeder yesterday and he said that as long as the white liquid is not constantly being dropped by her it should be ok , he said that it is calcium and that I should provide the birds with Grit and cuttle fish to top this up . I mentioned that a bar of cuttle fish is in the aviary but they don't seem to get near it. he advised to add some grit as well. I have put in some grit last night.

lets see what happens

rash oyster shell grit is the best m8,,,i have an aviary outback where i put all the young when they are taken away from the parents,,,in this there is a stafford hen sitting with four healthy chicks so dont worry,,,she also exscretes white pooh,,,very messy,,,due to eggforming imo,,,i think your looking to hard at the negatives,,,look for the good marrah,,,is she flying well,,,is the cock attentive,,,are they doing the doo,,,cos a hen like a woman wont if there off colour   ,,,make sure you dont leave any boiled egg to spoil especially in the heat we ve had lately,,,i never use it personally,,,commercial is better,,,safer imo,,,and most of all make sure the nest if outside has some form of rain cover over it or you will lose the lot when it persistantly rains,,,any good breeding comes down to the birds being left to get on,,,do not keep checking the nest etc or you will put her off,,,do what needs to be done,,,then when she pops off the nest as they do at times have a sneaky peek,,,then leave and let them get on with it,,,i find that my old hen is so used to me now the only time she is nervous is when close to the nest but she doesnt even move now just sits and looks as if to say get lost   ,,,all the best marrah,,,ps make sure all nesting sights in outside aviarys are in the shelter its less disturbing for them,,,anything else you need to know write away there a good bunch on here well most of em   and are allways willing to help,,,johnboy...

Thanks John . so glad to hear that you have noticed the same white pooh  
yup oyster grit is what I put in this morning. thanks for the tip on boiled eggs . the breeder I purchased it from told me that this is what he did so I just followed him . I will experiment with the commercial red colour egg food that I bought a couple days ago.

so the Aviary has a inside bit that is covered apart from the entrance of course. the outside bit also has a triangle roof on it so its covered. the place they have build the nest is in the outside bit high up near the covered bit . I put a cardboard covering the mesh so we can't directly look in the nest.

you guys are really great here on the forum . thank you so much for the advise so far.

I hope that I can share some good news and pics soon of new eggs or chicks   

trying to attach some pics here

Aviary pic , if you can zoom you can see the nest top right
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Rosie sitting looking at me :-)
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Rosie feeding
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Inside the night shelter , zoom in and you can see her vent swollen
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hi Pete, thank you

When you say signaled tunnel trap do you mean to keep mice and rats away ? I have a kitten (daisy) who roams the aviary and my garden .. I am pretty sure she will keep away mice and other animals.

but good idea I will actually look into this

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thanks Pete. true say . I will look into this.
do you have any simple tunnel trap plans I could look at for future ?

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thanks

Rash. One of the problems with keeping and breeding canaries is that there is no one way. As time goes on you will evolve a system that works for you, and regardless of anything anyone says that is the one for you.
On this and other forums there will be many breeders of varying experience who will in all good faith offer advice, and many will be contradictory. Your problem will be to decide who to believe.
There are two things I would comment on. the 'normal' time for buying and selling canaries is the autumn and early winter. A few more may become available in February and March as breeders make their final selections. It is unusual fro breeders to retain surplus breeding pairs this late in the year.
In my experience, in most cases, pairs offered for sale at this time of the year are those that have been tried by their owners and have failed to produce offspring, which could be for a variety of reasons , or the breeder has taken a couple of rounds and is then passing the pair on. In your particular case I could of course be quite wrong. I would however recommend that you try and acquire any stock you need at the more normal time in future.
Secondly you will learn as you spend more time on the forum that publishing photos of birds is very difficult, with the end result not resembling the birds in question. With that in mind I would say that in my opinion the bird you have posted is neither a cobalt nor intensive. It could be a non intensive red agate or a non intensive red black.
It is easy for you to determine whether the birds originated from Belgium. If they did they will have a closed metal ring on their leg. On this ring somewhere there will be a code, amongst others that says AOB or BOF. It will also have a date for the year the birds were bred.

Welcome to the fancy!!

Geoff that is awesome advise thank you. with what you said I don't feel this bad now. This is my first start and I guess I will have to learn by mistakes.

As you seen the aviary I want to get some more birds in here after I have practiced with these 2 . I am said that I didn't find this forum before I purchased the birds :-(
but will going forward I will ask advise here and purchase from people on here.

and again thank you I wanted to figure out what they are really. I will try to get better pictures of the birds as soon as I can. Flying out this weekend for work so will disappear for a week :-( .

the female has a black closed ring , I am going to check the letters if I can later or after I have figured out wether she has laid eggs or not. don't want to touch her now :-).

strangely the male has no ring . I was gone ask wether that was a common thing to do ? to ring females and not males ?

rash2014 wrote:Thanks John . so glad to hear that you have noticed the same white pooh  
yup oyster grit is what I put in this morning. thanks for the tip on boiled eggs . the breeder I purchased it from told me that this is what he did so I just followed him .  I will experiment with the commercial red colour egg food that I bought a couple days ago.

so the Aviary has a inside bit that is covered apart from the entrance of course.  the outside bit also has a triangle roof on it so its covered. the place they have build the nest is in the outside bit high up near the covered bit . I put a cardboard covering the mesh so we can't  directly look in the nest.

you guys are really great here on the forum . thank you so much for the advise so far.

I hope that I can share some good news and pics soon of new eggs or chicks   

that will be fine there marrah,,,i bred canarys outdoors for years on the colony system so if you need any advise just ask,,,you will need double breeders for the future though once the bug gets you   ,,,the cat will eventually get used to the birds as the birds do with them and they are great for birds,,,1 they keep other cats away,,,2 they chase the wild birds so less chance of diseases being passed on,,,and they do catch mice mine brings the buggers in everyday and plays with them till there dead,,,if you use this season as a learning curve you will be on a better footing for the future,,,enjoy your birds and then if you do get the bug buy what you want next season from established breeders,,,there are a multitude to choose from,,,or if you want to stick with what you got and just enjoy the privelege of owning them then thats fine too,,,either way enjoy,,,johnboy...  

We all make mistakes. Those that are wise are those that learn from them.
Your next decision will be whether you want to colony breed in your aviary. this can give satisfaction but no control over which birds pair together and the chance of you breeding stock to show will be minimal. Alternatively you can breed in cages and then moult your birds in the aviary. That way you will decide which birds will be paired together and with luck young birds suitable for showing will ensue.
The Black ring on your hen means that she was bred last season----which is good. A bird with no ring must always be viewed with suspicion, as their age cannot be verified. Whilst there is no rule that states that it must carry a ring, the vast majority of serious breeders follow this custom. In Belgium birds cannot be sold without a closed ring.

Continue playing for the rest of this season, then try and visit as many breeders as you can to view the different colours available. There are a good number in your part of the country Only when you have seen a goodly number make the decision on what is right for you. Then seek serious and honest breeders from whom to buy stock.

Good luck.

GeoffW wrote:We all make mistakes. Those that are wise are those that learn from them.
Your next decision will be whether you want to colony breed in your aviary. this can give satisfaction but no control over which birds pair together and  the chance of you breeding stock to show will be minimal. Alternatively you can breed in cages and then moult your birds in the aviary. That way you will decide which birds will be paired together and with luck young birds suitable for showing will ensue.
The Black ring on your hen means that she was bred last season----which is good. A bird with no ring must always be viewed with suspicion, as their age cannot be verified. Whilst there is no rule that states that it must carry a ring, the vast majority of serious breeders follow this custom. In Belgium birds cannot be sold without a closed ring.

Continue playing for the rest of this season, then try and visit as many breeders as you can to view the different colours available. There are a good number in your part of the country Only when you have seen a goodly number make the decision on what is right for you. Then seek serious and honest breeders from whom to buy stock.


Good luck.  

Thank you Geoff for the sound advice , can I ask how you just know by the black ring that she is one year old ? What magic is involved here :-).

Thank you

johnboy wrote:

rash2014 wrote:Thanks John . so glad to hear that you have noticed the same white pooh  
yup oyster grit is what I put in this morning. thanks for the tip on boiled eggs . the breeder I purchased it from told me that this is what he did so I just followed him .  I will experiment with the commercial red colour egg food that I bought a couple days ago.

so the Aviary has a inside bit that is covered apart from the entrance of course.  the outside bit also has a triangle roof on it so its covered. the place they have build the nest is in the outside bit high up near the covered bit . I put a cardboard covering the mesh so we can't  directly look in the nest.

you guys are really great here on the forum . thank you so much for the advise so far.

I hope that I can share some good news and pics soon of new eggs or chicks   

that will be fine there marrah,,,i bred canarys outdoors for years on the colony system so if you need any advise just ask,,,you will need double breeders for the future though once the bug gets you   ,,,the cat will eventually get used to the birds as the birds do with them and they are great for birds,,,1 they keep other cats away,,,2  they chase the wild birds so less chance of diseases being passed on,,,and they do catch mice mine brings the buggers in everyday and plays with them till there dead,,,if you use this season as a learning curve you will be on a better footing for the future,,,enjoy your birds and then if you do get the bug buy what you want next season from established breeders,,,there are a multitude to choose from,,,or if you want to stick with what you got and just enjoy the privelege of owning them then thats fine too,,,either way enjoy,,,johnboy...  

Thanks johnboy :-) I will certainly pm you for advice further down the line

I wish that I had mystic powers, but there is a simple answer. Each year a colour is designated worldwide for use on all cage bred birds. Last year was Black this year is Dark Green

may i just add that controlled colony breeding will give as good a bird as you purchase and breed in any cage,,,one cock in with three or four hens will and does work,,,and its easier than swapping a cock from cage to cage,,,you know the pedigree as theres only one cock in there ,,,you also know the mother as you use different coloured rings and good record keeping and you cant go wrong,,,i do use double breeders and trebles but i allways leave the odd cock with a couple of hens in the flight,,,my belief is when the young are taken away from the parents and put out to moult they learn a little from those adults,,,and its a joy to sit in the garden chilling and watching lifes little events unfold,,,nature for the kids to learn,,,good luck with all your breeding rash,,,whichever way you choose enjoy,,,johnboy...  

johnboy wrote:may i just add that controlled colony breeding will give as good a bird as you purchase and breed in any cage,,,one cock in with three or four hens will and does work,,,and its easier than swapping a cock from cage to cage,,,you know the pedigree as theres only one cock in there ,,,you also know the mother as you use different coloured rings and good record keeping and you cant go wrong,,,i do use double breeders and trebles but i allways leave the odd cock with a couple of hens in the flight,,,my belief is when the young are taken away from the parents and put out to moult they learn a little from those adults,,,and its a joy to sit in the garden chilling and watching lifes little events unfold,,,nature for the kids to learn,,,good luck with all your breeding rash,,,whichever way you choose enjoy,,,johnboy...  

So johnboy . How does this colony breeding work . One cock to a couple hens . The cock mates with all and helps feeding all the other hens ? Isn't that a bit to much for the poor guy ?

I like the sound of this as long as I keep the same colour and control the quality of the birds.

Also what happens when all the babies enter the aviary ? Don't want to interbreed , heard that's not good :-( . Would I then have to desperate the younger birds to ensure that they don't interbreed.

rash2014 wrote:

johnboy wrote:may i just add that controlled colony breeding will give as good a bird as you purchase and breed in any cage,,,one cock in with three or four hens will and does work,,,and its easier than swapping a cock from cage to cage,,,you know the pedigree as theres only one cock in there ,,,you also know the mother as you use different coloured rings and good record keeping and you cant go wrong,,,i do use double breeders and trebles but i allways leave the odd cock with a couple of hens in the flight,,,my belief is when the young are taken away from the parents and put out to moult they learn a little from those adults,,,and its a joy to sit in the garden chilling and watching lifes little events unfold,,,nature for the kids to learn,,,good luck with all your breeding rash,,,whichever way you choose enjoy,,,johnboy...  

So johnboy . How does this colony breeding work . One cock to a couple hens . The cock mates with all and helps feeding all the other hens ? Isn't that a bit to much for the poor guy ?

I like the sound of this as long as I keep the same colour and control the quality of the birds.

Also what happens when all the babies enter the aviary ? Don't want to interbreed , heard that's not good :-( . Would I then have to desperate the younger birds to ensure that they don't interbreed.

ive often used one cock to three/four hens no problem,,,he will feed all hens and young,,,its not to much when you think he only eats n feeds as he would in a cage,,,and there much fitter in a flight,,,to keep the quality and no crossbreeds you build pens like i have,,,about three foot wide six high four long,,,as the british bird breeders do,,,this enables you to breed different colours and keep the pedigree to a high standard,,,you can remove the young to another pen or flight when they are feeding for themselves,,,or indeed cages so you can watch and sex them ready for next season,,,johnboy...  

It would probably help Rash if you posted some pictures of your set-up as it stands John & how you manage these 'pairs' with all their youngsters & the other youngsters you have bred elsewhere all happily getting along together in your flight ?

Probably enlighten a few more of us too.

That's a good idea :-)

A couple pics would help if you can . One more question do the females not fight over the one cock? Or fight with each other over nests and nesting material? I assume you put more nests up and let the hens find and fight over which ever one they like ?